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The Argument Clinic

Doppleganger posting in The Argument Clinic
User: argument_clinic (posted by evilgrins)
Date: March 12th, 2008
Subject: just a quick little thing before I get into this...
Security: Public
Tags:chrisians, christianity, demi-gods, dictionaries, egyptians, end of days, garfield, god, god of the jews, jesus, jews, judaism, messiah, movies, pantheons, polytheism, the crusades, the devil, the spanish inquisition, transmogrification
...I don't actually believe what you're about to read. It's an interesting little thought that wandered into my head a few months back and I just kept putting off actually writing it up. Till now anyway.

No idea why.

8:25 PM 3/11/08 · If I have any one failing (DON'T YOU SAY IT!) it's that I watch an unholy (yay subtext) amount of movies. A rather popular theme among some of the more vaguely religious ones is "the greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing humanity that he does not exist". I've heard this in a bunch of different movies, though only End of Days comes to mind right now, and it's the kinda thing that makes a mind as warped as mine wonder...

...was that really the greatest trick?

Polytheist by philosophy, there are certain patterns to religions and the pantheons they follow. Granted, I'm not sure the term "pantheon" actually applies to monotheistic religions but I'm lacking another word to use right now so let's apply it unless one of you knows the singular.

Hmmm, just consulted my Garfield Dictionary (if you didn't know I was odd by now) and it says a pantheon is a temple for Gods and not the place upon which they dwell.

Regardless, in the early days (way de fuck back when) the Jews were polytheists. A little slavery with the Egyptians and then freedom with the help of a guy who knew a really neat transmogrification for sticks into snakes, and they followed a new God. The one that became known rather quickly as the "God of the Jews".

Be it gods or a singular god, as a general rule they tend to be associated with one particular group of people...and by "group" that's usually like the people of a country or region. God, for whatever reason, focused It's attention on the Jews and thus they were under that reign...

...up until Jesus.

My personal, but unpopular theory, went along the lines of an old joke. There's a lot of Christians, though not all of them, that don't believe Jesus was simply God's offspring but literally God in human form. While that may make a body wonder who was up in the High Seat at the time God was doing the skinsuit bit on Earth, or maybe just me, there's really no way to know for sure. Regardless, there are those that believe this and thus (use that word a lot in religious posts) when they're praying to God they're actually praying to Jesus. Although, there are those that don't believe God and Jesus are the same person but they still pray to Jesus and God equally.

In most polytheistic systems where the deities have offspring with mortals, the children are often considered to be gods as well; or demi·gods depending. However, Christianity and Judaism have the 10 Commandments, as they're 2 faiths drawing on much of the same source materials. You're not supposed to pray to anyone or anything except God...

... and Jesus isn't God.

It's kind of a sore point with me seeing as I've noted Christians also tend to pray to angels, saints, etc. Praying to Jesus, the resident demi·god/Messiah in question isn't a huge leap really. Still, it strikes me odd regardless of whether or not he was God or is the heir apparant.

I'm wandering.

Here's the thing. Say you're the Devil and you, mischievous lil' evil thing that you are, are highly motivated to shake the faith or otherwise mess with the people that God has worshipping It. By taking them away from God, regardless wherever they wind up, you score a point in your win column; why wouldn't the Devil have a quota? The Jews love, worship, and adore God and you're not liking that set of circumstances because it just looks bad on your annual review. You need to find some way to detract away from that, something very effective that you know will convince everybody that there's another way to go...

...like say a son of God who can show an even truer path to paradise.

God has a rather longstanding tradition of not interfering, with the occasional miracle or direct communication to someone of faith, and the Devil is really big with throwing the proverbial monkey in the wrench (never sure I've got that term right). Hypothetically it wouldn't be outside the Devil's power to create Jesus and lead a large number of people away from God, if only in the sense that they think they're still following God but none the wiser they're not. Sure, there are those that didn't buy Jesus was the son of God or the Messiah or really worth listening to and they stayed true to their faith.

Discord really kinda puts another mark in the Devil's win column. Maybe not a full point but why mince the details?

Then you've gotta consider the rather interesting twists of Christian history. The Crusades & The Spanish Inquisition being biggies! If you didn't study your history in any detail, or just glazed over the unpleasant parts, missionaries trying to spread the Christian faith back in the day often used torture and food deprivation for those less than willing to come on over to the "true path"; standard cult recruitment methodology. Now, does this kinda behavior sound more like the living up in the clouds Godly thing to do or more along the lines of a certain horny headed naughty boy that lives down below?

What's the greater trick? Proving you don't exist to the masses or leading them away from salvation and just off in any old direction that suited whatever whim was in that diabolical lil' pointy eared head of his?

I don't believe this but you gotta admit, minus my excessive ramblings and colloquial references, it is an interesting train of thought.

So...what do you think?

Two old rabbis are having a late dinner and discussing a number of things when one begins to complain about his son. He had sent him away to school and while there he had converted from their faith to Christianity. The other rabbi patted his friends shoulder sympathetically and said that he could completely relate for he too had a son that had gone away and while he was out in the world he had become a Christian.

Not sure what to do about this, the two rabbis decide to speak to God on the matter. Listening to their prayers God said, "You know, it's funny you mention that..."
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Pretty eyes, pirate smile: WhatDreams/InLove
User: prokrstn8r
Date: March 12th, 2008 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
You definitely poke at an interesting point, being that many times, in many ways, many Christians have done evil, un-Christian things in the name of their religion.

However, there are a lot of holes in your argument.

1)There's a lot of Christians, though not all of them, that don't believe Jesus was simply God's offspring but literally God in human form.

Actually, the most basic, fundamental, necessary requirement to being a "Christian" is to believe that Jesus IS God in human form. Those who do not believe that are not Christians.

2)You're not supposed to pray to anyone or anything except God...

You're not supposed to WORSHIP anyone except God. Praying is talking, not necessarily worshipping. Though I agree with you that it bothers me when "Christians" pray to saints and angels and all that stuff...pretty much only Catholics do that, though, and it's just one of the MANY reasons I disagree with Catholicism.

3) ... and Jesus isn't God.

I don't really know what you're basing that on. You didn't prove that anywhere...it's merely a non-Christian statement. Which is totally fine, but you can't apply something a non-Christian would say to a Christian's mentality.

4) in terms of leading people away from salvation, the way you suggest the devil does this is actually not consistent with protestant Christian doctrine. It's the thought that counts, not technicalities.

But even if you ignore all those holes, and you're still convinced that praying to Jesus is blasphemy, or if you think about the other ways in which Christians wander off their paths (like the crusades), I think the original statement still stands. It's a pretty great trick to convince Christians that he doesn't exist within their realm of worship...it's a pretty great trick to convince a lot of people that as long as they are thinking about Jesus/God and doing things in His name that they aren't succumbing to evil. That when you break the commandments in God's name, the devil doesn't exist there. Still the greatest trick, IMHO.
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Doppleganger: everybody needs coffee
User: evilgrins
Date: March 12th, 2008 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Keyword:everybody needs coffee
Actually, the most basic, fundamental, necessary requirement to being a "Christian" is to believe that Jesus IS God in human form. Those who do not believe that are not Christians.

The usual distinction, between Judaism and Christianity, in most basic form, is the belief Jesus was the Messiah. Kinda the dividing line at least early on. I know, through LJ mostly, a number of people that are proud Christians that believe this but don't think Jesus is God in any sense.

#3 is more going just from this post. Jesus could be God, I'm kinda fuzzy if I believe this or not, but insofar as the context of this post is the only thing I'm basing that statement on.
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Pretty eyes, pirate smile: WhatDreams/InLove
User: prokrstn8r
Date: March 12th, 2008 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
I assure you, if they don't believe that Jesus is God, then they are not Christians...no matter what they think they are.

It's necessary, via Christian doctrine, that to be the Messiah, Jesus also must be God.
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User: kitwench
Date: March 12th, 2008 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Ok, here's the thing - and many non-Christians , and even a lot of actual 'We Don't Do THAT' Christians don't grok a main point here :

praying to vs praying with..

One prays TO God, and one prays *with* angels, saints, one's dearly departed mother, the local preacher , the ladies' 5 o'clock somewhere prayer meetin' , etc.

So when one is asking intercession on the part of angels and saints and dead loved ones, it's not 'praying TO' , it's praying with - or asking a favor.

Why ??
The angels, they go WAY back with the Big Guy.
Saints ? Ditto.
Your dead loved one is (in the belief system) supposedly up there WITH the Main Man.

So, the hope (of these beggin' Xians) is that by asking the Holy One's nearest and dearest (His Son, His GF Mary, His Buddy St. Peter), His Staff (angels) or even His Neighbors (your dead mom) , one's prayer might skip the wait list and get Seen To faster.

There's no proof this works, but Men we be, and AS men, we see this work quite well on Earth - it's just the hope that heaven's just as corrupt !

Kinda cute, really.

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